decisions on when to neuter

• 05-29-2008 10:48 AM

  jenns Joined on 09-10-2007 NE New Jersey Posts 1,008 Points 10

  decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact I'm trying to decide when to neuter Zack.  He is 7 months old now, and there are several reasons to do it now.  First, he is cryptorchid (only has 1 descended testicle) and there is an increased cancer risk associated with this.  Also, he is harrassing Zoe, my spayed female doxie, constantly trying to sniff and mount her, and he doesn't back off when she corrects him for it.  He also has begun some marking behaviors, thankfully not in my house though. At the same time, I do have an agreement with his breeder that I would not neuter him before 1 year of age, mostly due to the breed's sensitivity to anaesthesia and also to allow for proper growth and development.   The vet, however, says the sooner the better and I should not be waiting.  What should I do? Zoe - 3 year old chocolate and tan miniature dachshund Zack - 8 month old toy manchester terrier Ally - 9 year old black and white domestic shorthair cat

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• 05-29-2008 1:14 PM

  In reply to jenns

  KarissaKS Joined on 06-01-2007 La Crosse, WI Posts 602 Points 795

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact The agreement with his breeder should come first.  If you or your vet have reason to do it earlier you would have to clear it with the breeder first. I, personally, plan on waiting until Kaiser is 18 months to two years.  Everyone has their reasons for doing it when they do. Luke -- Lab/Shepherd (1-1-04) Kaiser -- Alaskan Klee Kai (12-30-07) Sar -- Arabian gelding (4-11-80) Norman -- Percheron/TB gelding (6-18-00)

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• 05-29-2008 1:37 PM

  In reply to jenns

  4HAND Joined on 05-28-2008 Posts 125 Points 15

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact Is it a stipulation of a written contract with your breeder?Something you agreed to in writting?If so you will need the breeders consent which they may give under the circumstances.If not I would do it now.I am curious about the anaesthesia sensitivity.Is it supposed to improve as he ages?                                                                                                                              Tena Im not fat! Im big boned!....Eric Cartman, South Park

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• 05-29-2008 1:56 PM

  In reply to jenns

  janet_rose Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW area, Texas Posts 3,616 Points 330

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact jenns: At the same time, I do have an agreement with his breeder that I would not neuter him before 1 year of age, mostly due to the breed's sensitivity to anaesthesia and also to allow for proper growth and development.   The vet, however, says the sooner the better and I should not be waiting.  What should I do? I would need some pressing medical reason to violate the agreement with the breeder.  Yes, there is a higher risk of cancer for a cryptorchid dog, but before 1-year-old and not curable by removing the testicles at the time of cancer discovery?  Neuter for a cryptorchid dog is not a simple, quick operation.  "The veterinarian must literally hunt for the testicle, which may be located anywhere from the area around the kidney in the abdomen to the muscle near the groin" - PetEducation.com. I do understand your situation.  My sister lost a beloved, "neutered" sheltie to cancer.  The rescue she got the dog from assumed he was neutered, but he was cryptorchid (neither testicle had descended).  At 6-years-old an abdominal mass was detected and the startled vet found his cancerous testicle(s?) during surgery.  If the dog had been neutered at 2-years-old when my sister got him, he probably would have been fine (cancer or no cancer).  However, estrogen produced by the dog's unusual type of cancer had over time destroyed the dog's immune system.  He couldn't heal and was released from his pain. You have to weigh the risk from anaesthesia vs the risk of incurable cancer before 1-year-old.  Personally I think anaesthesia is the greater risk for a sensitive breed.  Sorry, but I don't remember Zack's breed. ETA:  Zack is a toy manchester terrier (from OP's signature).

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• 05-29-2008 2:21 PM

  In reply to jenns

  CoBuHe Joined on 08-03-2007 Southeast Texas Posts 773 Points 35

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact If it were me, I would wait until he reaches the 12 months, speaking health related only.  Its only 5 months and there are health benefits to waiting, like you say "to allow for proper growth and development."  And, you've got the breeder's agreement which is another hefty reason to wait.  The bad behaviors can be managed for a while longer, JMO.  Besides...harrassment by a 7 month old is normal. I could be wrong, but isn't there always a slight chance the testicle could drop?  Wouldn't it be great if that occurred within the next 5 months and then the procedure would be so much easier.  Chances are probably slim though and he'll have to have the surgery...but maybe you should wait until he's a year old. You might want to get a second opinion on whether to wait or not from another vet in your area.

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• 05-29-2008 2:53 PM

  In reply to jenns

  janet_rose Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW area, Texas Posts 3,616 Points 330

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact This site discusses anaesthesia sensitivity in the Manchester terrier (about half way down the page).  The article claims to be the summary of a Cornell vet article, but this is not a vet site. http://www.geocities.com/manchestersforever/genetic.html A Manchester Terrier should not be given premeds.  They should be gassed straight down - (this is a little more difficult for the Vet , but better than losing the dog on the table).  Sensitive breeds do not metabolize an initial premed sedative out of the bloodstream quickly enough.  When gas or injected anesthetic is administered, it causes a doubling up of the anesthetic load, resulting in depression of the cardiovascular and central nervous systems.  ... Isoflurane is the newest of the gas anesthetic agents, and is considered by many to be the anesthetic of choice.  This is especially true for the young, the geriatric and the critically ill patient.  It is a very volatile gas which makes for very rapid induction and rapid recovery of the Manchester Terrier as a patient.   ... It is very important that the Manchester Terrier be well hydrated prior to and during the time the anesthetic is being given.

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• 05-29-2008 9:14 PM

  In reply to janet_rose

  jenns Joined on 09-10-2007 NE New Jersey Posts 1,008 Points 10

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact Thanks for the replies, and thanks janet_rose for that great info about anaesthesia and manchesters!  I just pulled out the breeder contract and it seems that her request to not neuter before the age of 1 is not in the contract, but it was a verbal agreement, or a recommendation I guess.   I think I will wait, I can wait it out for 5 more months I suppose!  It seems to be the best thing to do, healthwise.  I feel bad for Zoe though, sometimes she just has this "please help me!" look on her face when Zack makes his pushy advances.  I also spoke too soon about the no marking in the house.  He just did it 15 minutes ago.  Ugh. Zoe - 3 year old chocolate and tan miniature dachshund Zack - 8 month old toy manchester terrier Ally - 9 year old black and white domestic shorthair cat

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• 05-29-2008 9:16 PM

  In reply to jenns

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,727 Points 1,075

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact   I would wait as the breeder requested.  Hektor is also a cyptorchid and he is not yet neutered. Being a large breed I am waiting until he is at least 18 months old before nuetering him. Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 05-29-2008 10:13 PM

  In reply to jenns

  Bonita of Bwana Joined on 09-14-2007 Posts 1,559 Points 4,410

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact Tough question, In my breed I required the owner wait until 12 months and encourage them to wait until 18 months.  Our breed drops the chest and develops the masculine features that make them beyond striking in this time frame. Pups from the same litters who were altered at different times, one at 6 months the other at 15 months have dogs that look like they were born from totally different parents.  One was very Bit*hy and feminine. His head and body lean but never with the muscle tone that I am used to in both my boys and girls. I have had monochrid pups in past litters they have been altered on my schedule they do develop the way I both anticipate and the way my line should look.  You would NOT want to keep that single testicle for ever, it can cause problems , just like two can ...down the road. But unless it has specific abnormalities that concern your vet ..aside from count...he can hang on to it until you are ready to have him altered.  I insist they wait just  long enough to allow him to develop into the masculine looking boy they want ...looking into breed books people develope a concept and an image of what they want thier dog to look like.  Ending up with an infeminate boy can be a bummer if they got a male because in their mind's eye it would look like          .... insert picture of adult dog..... jmho a few more months won't hurt , UNLESS he becomes territorial and then just snip snip does not fix things you need to up your game with training too... Bonita of Bwana Bonita of Bwana AKC Rhodesian Ridgebacks Champions, Therapy Dogs and Awesome Companions

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• 05-29-2008 11:31 PM

  In reply to jenns

  janet_rose Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW area, Texas Posts 3,616 Points 330	Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact jenns: I feel bad for Zoe though, sometimes she just has this "please help me!" look on her face when Zack makes his pushy advances.  I also spoke too soon about the no marking in the house.  He just did it 15 minutes ago.  Ugh. It may not help Zoe, but belly bands would help with the marking inside.
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• 05-30-2008 1:23 AM

  In reply to janet_rose

  janet_rose Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW area, Texas Posts 3,616 Points 330	Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact Belly bands: http://malteserescue.homestead.com/MaltShopPages/BellyBamds.html http://www.petorphans.com/bellybands.html http://www.decotogs.com/bellybands/bellybandinfo.htm The first site has designer patterns - Xmas, American flag, political, ...
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• 06-03-2008 1:05 AM

  In reply to janet_rose

  whtsthfrequency Joined on 09-10-2007 Blacksburg, VA Posts 962 Points 200

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact A Manchester Terrier should not be given premeds. They should be gassed straight down  Haha...I'm sorry, but I couldn't help it, that makes no sense......and how do they expect the vet to place the endotracheal tube without premeds Premeds do lower the amount of gas anesthetic needed, and adjustments are alwasy made accordingly unless the vet is an idiot. But there is no such thing as "gassing straight down" -- unless you are talking about gassing the dog in a box like you would do with a feral cat, and *then* placing the tube, which is also dangerous because the dog will no longer have a swallow reflex. You need to have the dog tubed and cuff inflated before gas anesthesia, which is almost impossible to do on a live, struggkling dog without risking a LOT of tracheal damage.   I would rather be very careful with the iso% and flow rate, than risk difficult intubation (read: torn trachea)  myself....   Everything else in the article is right on....but I have never heard of "gassing a dog straight down" as the desireable option, unless you have a demon chihuahua that needs to be gassed in a box because no one can get near it and you have no darts.

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• 06-03-2008 1:29 AM

  In reply to whtsthfrequency

  grab01 Joined on 09-10-2007 middle of the desert Posts 857 Points 0

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact you actually can gas a dog down using a mask. We have to do it now and then with dogs who are very elderly and/or have a serious health problem that might cause issue during anesthesia where we'd need to wake them up straight away.  They can struggle, yes, (the gas isn't pleasant smelling), but it is not impossible.  It is also no more difficult to tube them, assuming you wait until they are suitably sedated.  They will start waking up very quickly when you've only used gas, though, so you have to work quickly to get them tubed and put back on gas.  However, we do not do it to animals who are healthy with no known health problems, as it's just needlessly stressful.  Anesthetics, as with any drug, always have some risks, but they're so safe now that complications are pretty rare.  The gas is always kept on the minimum  amount needed. There are also very safe short acting premeds now.

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• 06-03-2008 6:39 PM

  In reply to grab01

  whtsthfrequency Joined on 09-10-2007 Blacksburg, VA Posts 962 Points 200

  Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact That's true, I'm just hate mask gassing unless absolutely necessary - for all the reasons listed above, plus the possible room contamination and danger to the people in it - it's worse than box gassing. Tubing a dog who has only been given gas is difficult because you only have that short window - like you said, they snap out of it pretty quick and you need to be ever watchful. Too much or not enough and you'll struggle.   There are also very safe short acting premeds now   Yep, plus a lot of additives to counteract any cardiodepressant/respiratory depressant issues. We usually use a  morphine/acepromazine/glycopyrrolate cocktail that is quite safe and tailored to suit the individual dog.

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• 06-04-2008 11:11 AM

  In reply to whtsthfrequency

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 780 Points 0	Re: decisions on when to neuter Reply Contact I wouldn't be too eager to neuter until after figuring out what's going on his his digestion problems. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!
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