Diseases & Conditions

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Tue, 21 May 2013 18:28:00 GMT

TracyM:
After a dogs PCV has reached the normal range, and there is no destruction going on; how long until they usually start to decrease the cyclo? June has been on the cyclo for almost 3 months now, and over a month ago her PCV was at 39% (my TCVM vet said that her dogs normal is at 39%). We will be doing another lab work up this Saturday, and I was just wondering how long to expect to have her on this.

I so wish you could get a thyroid panel done -- I know you're already supp thyroid, but it would be really nice to know if it were a sufficient dose. When they do the labwork I would ask the vet to find out if she has sufficient iron in her blood. Also ask specifically to know if there are spherocytes present (meaning there CAN be spherocytes if the body is making blood while the body is still destroying. But you also live in a place very sunlight deprived and so 39 may be normal for her. Usually they wean off pred FIRST. Then they start weaning off the cyclo -- that **must** be done very slowly. Like 6 months if at all possible. The very end isn't bad because you go down to 10mg pills and then you skip days (and ultimately several days) between pills.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

TracyM — Tue, 21 May 2013 04:29:01 GMT

After a dogs PCV has reached the normal range, and there is no destruction going on; how long until they usually start to decrease the cyclo? June has been on the cyclo for almost 3 months now, and over a month ago her PCV was at 39% (my TCVM vet said that her dogs normal is at 39%). We will be doing another lab work up this Saturday, and I was just wondering how long to expect to have her on this.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

RonniK — Tue, 21 May 2013 00:46:07 GMT

Melissa, I am so sorry for what you are going through with your baby. To fight for so long and through so many transfusions without seeing any light at the end of the tunnel has to be just devastating. I am going to second Callie's suggestion about getting Dr. Dodds on board. It is great that the baby cells are increasing but obviously the destruction is also increasing too if her PCV has gone down. The lymphocyte count is not a biggie for me because with pred generally comes some sort of infections and therefore increased WBC; but the PCV dropping to 23 is critical! Dr. Dodds held our hand through all sorts of crises (we were told three different times Shayna would be dead within 24 hours). She emailed us from Italy and talked to us on the phone repeatedly. She understands how upset we are and how desperate for help. She has probably seen more IMHA than anyone in the country and if there's anyone who can figure this out, it's Jean. I sort of vaguely recall your touching base with her earlier. If so, try again. Maybe she has new suggestions. If you haven't, then by all means contact her yourself if you feel like your vet might be resistant. We are definitely in the crazy dog people camp, except of course that we don't consider Shayna a dog, just our only daughter.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Mon, 20 May 2013 20:36:49 GMT

Melissa - I wish I was there to hold your hand (and email me to vent **ANY** time).

Has your vet/vets consulted with Dr. Jean Dodds -- that would be absolutely THE first thing I would say. So often she is able to suggest (even to a specialist or someone who thinks themselves above "consulting" with someone). Because she IS a teacher (she goes around to vet schools all over the US and the world **teaching** vet schools how to deal with immune-mediated blood diseases) -- she's really good at not stomping on their egos and yet getting them to see something new.

Are you supplementing her thyroid?? Have you sent a thyroid panel to either Michigan State or better yet, to Hemopet??

Many times vets don't even suggest that because it's SO well known that pred screws up the thyroid -- **but** back when Dr. Dodds was at Michigan (before she retired -- she's the one who initiated the study) they did a HUGE study to determine how to accurately read the thyroid panel around the pred influence.

Why am I harping thyroid? Because A -- the thyroid tells the body how much blood to make and when.

**however** in addition -- it's the thyroid that actually helps the body regulate how often the valves in the heart should open and close. BIG influence on everything going on here by the thyroid.

yes -- she's immune suppressed. so cancer is always a big looming thing -- BUT it also doesn't happen super often. But with Dottie Sue's issues there are a whole lot of things that could be tried here.

Often Dr. Dodds will consult with a vet for a nominal fee (like about $40-$60). She will email YOU for nothing and tell her what she thinks you need to at least suggest to the vet.

I've seen her pull treatment out many times so that it works better.

Melissa -- I can't emphasize to you enough -- PLEASE email me. I will send you my phone numbers. It is absolutely positively impossible to "bother" me -- this is the nastiest disease on the planet. One of the reasons those of us who post here DO so is because the need for support is SO huge. Just knowing there is someone who understands is so important.

And then .;.. there is prayer. and good thots ... and we can do those too.

Time for the Candles Page folks:

Candles Page -- it is free -- they won't hassle you and they won't give you a virus. But it's such an easy way to help support someone.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

DottieSueMom — Mon, 20 May 2013 18:53:12 GMT

Hello -

I previously posted here back in February about my baby's battle with IMHA. Since then, she has had three more blood transfusions and a bone marrow, and we are still on the slippery slope. Just to recap, we treated her without pred for 4 months because of her heart defect, but we finally had to resort to prednisone, which she's handled it quite well so far. Her latest cbc showed her baby blood cells were now in the 50 thousands, up from the 20 thousands for the first time in the 6 months of this battle, but with that, her lymphocyte count went up for the first time and her pcv fell from 26 to 23. The specialist said this could be her immune system flairing up against the new baby cells, or it could be a hidden cancer that didn't present until now. I find it hard to believe that after all the tests and 6 months worth of treatment that suddenly she has cancer, so I'm more inclined to believe her immune system is indeed overactive. I am scared because I know we have reached a wall in treatment. If we can't contain the attack on her system there is only one possible outcome left. I can't continue to keep her alive on transfusions - it's not fair to her or me, and she's had five of them. We've tried every treatment and test available to us. I'm completely in debt over her, and while I don't regret it, I am embarassed to tell people how much I've spent, and I'm frustrated that it feels like it may all have been in vain. Every good day is a blessing, and I cherish every wag and cuddle. I feel such guilt that I'm having to actually weigh the final option that I can't even speak the words of that option because it feels so horrible to me. Sue is my first dog, and I never anticipated the bond I have with her. I've often described her illnesses effect on me as having a gravely sick child with no health insurance. I seriously think I'm going to need therapy if I lose her, or at the very least a grievance support group. I just wish I had more answers and solutions in all of this. People laugh abotu crazy cat ladies, but I think I'm a crazy dog lady! It's so heartbreaking.

I'm sorry, I just needed to vent/talk out how I'm feeling.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Sat, 18 May 2013 17:43:48 GMT

Hi -- glad to hear from you!!

Here's the slippery elm cocktail recipe:

1 -- half a cup of boiling water.

2 -- add 1 rounded tsp. of ground slippery elm

3 -- let cool totally

4 -- add 1/8 c. + 2 tablespoons of aloe juice

5 -- add 10 drops of chlorophyll

6 -- Add 2-3 capsules (open the caps) of acidolpholus

Once you get it mixed up and whipped smooth, it keeps in the fridge for 3-4 days (after that the acidopholous dies).

Use a baby medicine syringe and load it FULL. Give about half an hour before a meal. Just put the tip of the syringe behind the canine tooth and hold the mouth loosely closed. Squirt slowly so they can work their tongue to swallow.

The meds lead to all sorts of skin problems -- have you tried bathing in something simple like Selsun Blue -- and putting tea tree in the final rinse? (do it in the bathtub with a hand held shower if at all possible.) -- the anti-fungals are SO very hard on the gut and liver. Worse than the aza and pred. Are you also on a low grain food? That will also help.

Is there any possible way to send blood to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet? When the PCV stays a bit stubbornly low it's usually because the thryoid is suppressed by the drugs. BUT **in addition** if the thyroid is off you aren't going to get any victory at all with the skin stuff because it is SO integral in skin health.

Have you been doing full blood panels periodically. You've got the liver loaded **super** heavy. I hope you are doing **TONS** of milk thistle. 3 times a day is great -- but you need to be doing probably well over a tablespoon of milk thistle powder twice a day -- remember it doesn't just protect the liver. It also helps detox the liver and it helps **aid liver function**.

If the liver values are high you can always do CellFood SAM-e -- that is the best one out there I've found for dogs. It's a liquid so it absorbs easily in their gut. Just a few drops on food.

It is a HUGE battle!! But you are doing really really well!!

Let me know if there is anything I can do for you!! It's SO nice to hear from you.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

darcysmom — Sat, 18 May 2013 15:47:38 GMT

hey callie and fellow imha sufferers, Darcy has had imha since last october, we are on the medication lowering phase. Her numbers are stable at 40, her low was 12? I think, it feels like we have been on very long, hard journey. The battle is not over, though. Darcy now gets 10mg pred every other day and 5mg of immuran every other day, as well as 2 fungus meds 2x, stomach meds 2x and thyroid 1x, actigal 2x. Her weight has almost doubled since this started. She gets milk thistle 2-3x . I have 2 questions, what is the recipe for the aloe vera juice coctail? And any suggestions for weight reduction? Her skin keeps getting better than bad again, but, she no longer has bandages all over her, thank God. She is getting better, ever so slowly. Thanks, and please keep posting. I refer back to this web feed for encouragement weekly. Darcysmom

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Thu, 16 May 2013 03:10:08 GMT

TracyM:
Thanks! I will talk to my TCVM vet about the soloxine when we go back in for a follow-up. I know she talked about that and the armour thyroid, and decided to go with the armour.

We'd been supplementing Billy since *before* IMHA (I did FOUR regular thyroid tests that all came back "normal" on a dog I *KNEW* absolutely, positively HAD to be hypothyroid!!). We did a Michigan State thyroid panel (this was before Hemopet existed) and wow --- YEP, hypothyroid for an Eng. cocker!! WE discussed all meds -- but the deciding factor *then* was my TCVM's vet's contention that the "natural" glandular gave you a better coat and just generally made it "nicer" -- For those who are "lost" of what Tracy and I are talking about, Armour Thryoid is porcine thyroid gland -- yep, it's the hot dog people -- so it's not a manufactured supplement, it's 'natural'. At that time Armour was hassling a LOT with production -- it was hard to get. I can't tell you how many times I tore my hair out with Walgreens trying to GET it. For a time Armour wasn't making/distributing it -- so I wound up getting it at a compounding pharmacy that wasn't the Armour brand but was USDA "glandular" porcine thyroid supplement. It worked great -- expensive as sin but it worked well. With IMHA I just didn't want to change anything *else* and I was getting the glandular easily enough. so Billy was *always* on the glandular supplement. But now with Luna -- Dr. Dodds made a HUGE point with me when we discovered Luna's low thyroid -- and as Billy was a classic "hypothyroid" (way too heavy, couldn't lose weight, crappy skin and coat, generally not energetic) Luna was the TOTAL opposite -- she was hyper, she was WAY too skinny, couldn't keep weight ON her, perfect coat that was silky and soft **but** with her hypothryoid correcting it rectified the weight problem. Suddenly she was **fine** with the same amount of food that was consistent with what the others got (I'd been WAY over feeding her just to keep minimal weight on her) -- sooooooooooooooooo I decided I'd better listen. Initially I had her on levothyroxine (the human generic) but when I tried to GET Soloxine it was a royal pain. Finally my vet just plain gets it (and gets it CHEAP) from their med supplier. So I'm happy -- and I'm not paying $70 a month for the dog's thyroid supplement!

Re: AIHA or IMHA

TracyM — Thu, 16 May 2013 00:37:36 GMT

Thanks! I will talk to my TCVM vet about the soloxine when we go back in for a follow-up. I know she talked about that and the armour thyroid, and decided to go with the armour.

I am getting my cyclo at the cheapest place I have found here (Costco) and it has saved us several hundred a month. We actually have been filling all of Junes meds at costco because that's where we have been finding the best price.

I have sent Dr. Dodds several of June's labs and she has been very helpful and quick to answer my questions.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Wed, 15 May 2013 17:58:16 GMT

Tell your holistic vet that Dr. Dodds **strongly** suggests Soloxine (and your vet can get that cheaper than anyone and it's a LOT cheaper than Armour thyroid). I had Billy on Armour thyroid -- I *get* exactly why the holistic vet wants the glandular -- but given that Dr. Dodds has a TCVM vet and a homotox vet ON her staff so does she and she **still** strongly recommends the Soloxine. That could save you quite a bit (Soloxine comes in 200 pill bottles I think). If you're already supplementing thyroid then there's no need to send blood to Hemopet. I wasn't reading everything right. But tell your holistic vet not to hesitate to email Jean -- she absolutely ROCKS -- she spends all her time teaching at vet schools all over the world -- she is SO giving of her time it is incredible. hemopet@hotmail.com --- if your holistic vet just wants her input, I'm pretty sure she'd not charge you at all (she's just like that). And you've shopped around the cyclo prices?? As long as it's the "modified" you can use the generic and "where" you get that from can vary widely in price -- even checking with compounding pharmacies all over the place who will mail it to you -- the price can zigzag all over the place. You're doing well!! Your regular vet wants to do what they want to do regardless of the facts. Dr. Dodds is now SO well known all over the world for teaching on IM diseases -- and what she says about the "sick thryoid" is prove-able. The thyroid supp only "boosts' metabolic rate if the dog doesn't NEED the supp. Otherwise the body is hurting trying to cope with what it can't do (like the heart, etc.) DON'T tell me your vets name -- it would be just like me to send them a copy of Jean's book and I don't want to be a pain in *your* behind!! *grin* Good luck girl!! June's such a lucky gal to live with you guys!!!

Re: AIHA or IMHA

TracyM — Wed, 15 May 2013 17:44:04 GMT

Yes, we are using the CellFood Sam-E.

I have mentioned the thyroid testing, and she said that she hasn't found any information showing that thyroid meds help, and that they can boost the dogs metabolism, which isn't something we want since we have worked so hard to get Junes weight back up (she is up to 77 lbs from the very scary 61 lbs a few months ago.) She doesn't support it, but said that it was my choice to place June on the medication. So far we have had great results and no weight loss. The CVM vet just upped her dose to 3 grain bid, we will see how that goes.

With the labs, I like to get the labs done at the same place for consistent results. Otherwise it is a money issue. We are pushing it taking June to two vets, I can not afford to pay for more lab fees. Between her and me, we are spending A LOT in medical expenses every month. And if we are going to start looking to family to borrow money, unfortunately it is going to be for my IVF treatment. We have her on the cyclosporine, armour thyroid, and all the extras...what else would they do?

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Wed, 15 May 2013 04:17:24 GMT

lmsco:
I've read about Hemopet, but am still not clear when it makes sense to look into using it. Goose is a unknown mix -- maybe some schnauzer, terrier, poodle (we're thinking poodle's even more possible, with their tendency toward IMT). Is the Hemopet test still more useful? Can you explain in a bit more detail what the value would be in looking at the thyroid, and what would indicate that might be a good idea? I may bring it up with my vet, but still don't quite understand exactly what will be gained by using their lab (besides the fact that they've got more experience with these diseases?) Also, do you know how much more expensive it would be? We're currently paying $50/panel.

you give it your best -- and she makes a super good educated guess. But Dr. Dodds is absolutely "the Bomb" on ALL these immune-mediated blood diseases. To be honest, JUST having her review the bloodwork and give her take on it is the BEST money you can spend ... period!!

Most vets don't even LOOK at the thyroid -- knowing that it whacks the thyroid out, but they don't think about that sick thyroid NOT supporting the body. The big difference between Hemopet and MS at this point is she uses the 5th value as the TGAA -- thyroglobin auto-antibody. It is a more accurate marker as to whether or not the thyroid is "trying" to do what it should. Most vets are used to seeing the TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) -- but it's well known that's pretty much more "wrong" than "right" -- so she's gone to the TGAA and it is amazing how accurate this is.

JUST having her interpret the results **accurately** around the pred use is absolutely worth it.

The 'Thyroid 5' is T3, T4, Free T3, Free T4, and TGAA. -- for that you don't have to send it overnight -- Priority is fine.

The Thyroid 5 PLUS is all that PLUS a full "Super Chem" (all the blood values But also you get Dr. Dodds read on the whole IMHA thing -- not cheap but it is SOOOOO worth it to get her involved). You do have to send that overnight mail to California (and use Fed Ex -- they WILL get it there overnight guaranteed -- the USPS will**NOT** guarantee that -- don't bother!!!

If you go to the Hemopet webpage -- there is a "Sample Page" that will tell your vet exactly how much blood to draw. It also tells you the prices.

Let me know how I can help you.

Re: AIHA or IMHA

lmsco — Tue, 14 May 2013 22:42:53 GMT

calliecritturs:
I see what she means, however -- since massive doses of pred and steroids are involved you may want to remind her that steroids wreck havoc on the thyroid and it IS the thyroid that tells the body how much blood to manufacture. In honesty I would suggest your vet send at least the Thyroid 5 profile to Hemopet -- it's breed specific (even if your dog is a mix) and FAR more accurate. Most vets don't even think about testing the thyroid because it's so well known that pred skews the results. But Dr. Dodds headed up a study at Michigan State before she left there about pred & thyroid testing (and they still use all her protocols for the breed specific testing there -- the ONLY places you can get breed-specific testing is Hemopet or Michigan State) -- so both places are good at interpreting the results accurately taking the pred into account.

I've read about Hemopet, but am still not clear when it makes sense to look into using it. Goose is a unknown mix -- maybe some schnauzer, terrier, poodle (we're thinking poodle's even more possible, with their tendency toward IMT). Is the Hemopet test still more useful? Can you explain in a bit more detail what the value would be in looking at the thyroid, and what would indicate that might be a good idea? I may bring it up with my vet, but still don't quite understand exactly what will be gained by using their lab (besides the fact that they've got more experience with these diseases?) Also, do you know how much more expensive it would be? We're currently paying $50/panel.

calliecritturs:
As far as the blood sugar - WATCH THAT -- it is not at all uncommon for pred to trigger diabetes -- and you don't want to miss that in all this -- I'd be doing a full blood panel (*not* just a CBC) every two weeks for a good long while -- you need to monitor the liver values AND the sugar levels seriously to prevent bigger problems.

We're sending out full blood panel every time, which is actually cheaper than just the CBC for some reason. It's described as CBC Panel SA055 on our invoice. We're definitely planning on continuing with the full panel -- I'm just as worried about his liver and kidneys as I am about his platelets and red blood cells as this point. Our vet is keeping an eye on blood sugar and these values, so we're on top of that.

And thanks for the information on the other pill coating options. Maybe we'll try a puree -- he's pretty ravenous at the moment, so I doubt that he'll be too picky. When we first started him on the pred, it was a bit of a hassle to get the pills down, but this week he'll take anything he can get.

Thanks for the advice and help. Much appreciated!

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Tue, 14 May 2013 18:02:30 GMT

lmsco:
He spent three days and nights in the ER/internal medicine specialist hospital and was pumped with the highest doses of dexamethasone they could give him (plus a Vinicristine injection) because he was bleeding critically into his GI tract (the transfusion they gave him didn't stop the platelet destruction and his platelet count stayed under 15,000 while he was hospitalized, with a PCV of around 23-25). He was given the dex injections for two days because he was vomiting blood, but by the third day he had stopped and they immediately put him on 10mg of Prednisone twice a day and 25mg of Azathioprine once a day, in addition to Famotidine and Sucralfate and sent him home because he was getting depressed in the hospital. He's about 19 pounds at the moment, having lost 2-3 pounds while in the acute stages of his disease. He's recovering really well so far.

That is GREAT -- your vet just didn't take "no" for an answer!!! SO glad they got the body to slow down the destruction!! RAH!!!

Watch the sucrylfate -- it can be SUCH a good protectant that it doesn't let the drugs absorb. So watch his values **really** close (ie because sometimes it takes a few days for the crossover between the dex and the other drugs so that the vet sees that the azathiaprene is holding up it's share of the load). I've got the Slippery Elm Cocktail recipe you can have any time -- it's not really a protectant, but it helps prepare the stomach for food, and particularly if you get ***ANY*** small hint that the stomach is sore, it will heal an ulcer like nothing else!!

lmsco:
The vet noticed that his liver values were a little high, as was his blood sugar. Initially she was going to taper to 15mg total/day but since he started on such high doses she decided and I agreed that we could drop it down to 10mg of Pred once a day (plus the 25mg of Aza once a day) and monitor him. It seems that there's more art than science to the tapering regime, but I'm curious to hear thoughts on how we're starting out. We started this weekend with the new schedule and will head back in for more bloodwork on Friday to see how he's doing.

You may want to add SAM-e since the liver values are already high -- CellFood SAM-e is a liquid so it is readily available to the body and works really well on dogs. Vitamin Shoppe carries it, as does SwansonVitamins.com. Get 2 bottles - you will use them and that, if I remember right, will get you free shipping.

I would tell you to get two pounds of milk thistle -- the shipping is only marginally more so no sense in paying it twice. You'll be using it for MONTHS and it doesn't go bad. It's hard for me to tell because at various times I give it to all three of my dogs. But at at least two heaping teaspoons a day (and I would give more than that since you've got high liver values AND the vet is using aza which is harder on the liver) you'll go thru a pound in probably .... GUESS .... 5-6 weeks?? Just keep it in an airtight container.

I will email you my phone numbers -- I can help you with day to day hints. But Pill Caddies are your friend!!!! Put his meds up by the week (one in an AM and one in a PM at least -- or use as many pill caddies as you give meds during the day). BUT if you use an extra large pill caddy you can put up meds for the whole week at once. I used to have separate ones for powders vs. pills. The powders I mixed into his food (milk thistle, d-mannose and a couple of supplements the holistic vet had him on) ... the pills I put in baby food or liverwurst -- but you open up Tuesday nite's section and when all the pills are gone you're done!! No opening 18 bottles (and OM Gosh if someone calls you on the phone and you lose your place you don't lose your mind!!!)

lmsco:
His bloodwork last Friday was encouraging, his platelets are back to normal at about 340,000 but his PCV is climbing more slowly and is now at about 34. Our vet suggested that it was unlikely that IMHA was involved (something I specifically asked) because his PCV never dropped below about 22-23, and stayed relatively stable while his platelet count plummeted. She said it's more likely the continuing anemia is because of all the blood loss and the fact that red blood cells take longer to regenerate than platelets.

I see what she means, however -- since massive doses of pred and steroids are involved you may want to remind her that steroids wreck havoc on the thyroid and it IS the thyroid that tells the body how much blood to manufacture. In honesty I would suggest your vet send at least the Thyroid 5 profile to Hemopet -- it's breed specific (even if your dog is a mix) and FAR more accurate. Most vets don't even think about testing the thyroid because it's so well known that pred skews the results. But Dr. Dodds headed up a study at Michigan State before she left there about pred & thyroid testing (and they still use all her protocols for the breed specific testing there -- the ONLY places you can get breed-specific testing is Hemopet or Michigan State) -- so both places are good at interpreting the results accurately taking the pred into account.

Honestly -- many, many times I've seen the PCV go 'up' about 7 -9 points in only a week or two after supplementation starts.

As far as the blood sugar - WATCH THAT -- it is not at all uncommon for pred to trigger diabetes -- and you don't want to miss that in all this -- I'd be doing a full blood panel (*not* just a CBC) every two weeks for a good long while -- you need to monitor the liver values AND the sugar levels seriously to prevent bigger problems.

lmsco:
Also curious about the suggestion that peanut butter is hard on the kidneys. We're using natural peanut butter (with the oil drained off to make it less messy) for our pills per our vets suggestion, as it is Goose's favorite. I haven't read anything about it causing kidney issues, Callie, could you point me to a source for that info? It doesn't take much -- he's so ravenous that a little tiny smear of peanut butter on the pill means he'll swallow it down -- it doesn't even need to be coated! It's an affordable and shelf stable option when refrigerated, which is another reason we're using it.

That's specifically from my holistic vet Dr. Connie DiNatale (she's on the faculty at the Chi Institute). It came up in conversation when we were talking about a mutual friend who is a trainer and this one woman's dogs repeatedly wind up in renal failure. We're talking yorkies so it may be a bad breeding thing, but Dr. D cautioned me that altho dogs LOVE peanut butter (and they ALL do) that it is very hard on the body. Alternatively tahini (being sesame butter rather than peanut butter) is actually GOOD for them and it's very similar in taste -- again you can drain off most of the oil (Joyva foods -- the ethnic section of the grocery store - near the Jewish stuff?) -- Used minimally you aren't going to create huge problems over night - BUT if you've already got bloodsugar problems (i.e., endocrine but also kidney-related) I'd tell you to be cautious.

IMHA can take other breed-related health issues and make them worse. It's hard on the heart, the meds are hard on the kidneys and liver and thyroid ... so it's all sort of a magic balance.

However, I can also promise you (just from years of experience) -- **MOST** dogs wind up with some sort of stomach problems eventually. The meds are hard as heck on the gut, and many many dogs will suddenly decide "my tummy feels bad so it must be THAT THING she gave me" And suddenly they are "OFF" whatever you've been using to give meds.

The good thing is you aren't sticking meds in food (man, that is always GONNA fail eventually). I discovered with Billy (and he was EZ Peasy about food - always was) -- but I had to switch it up. "Mom do I GOTTA??" -- So I kept jars of meat baby food on the shelf and containers of veggie baby food (I'd mix 1/1 of a meat/veg in a glad container, drop the pills in and he'd take them off a plastic spoon!), ricotta cheese, yogurt (both of which are naturally low fat), LIVERWURST (the all time favorite but it's high fat).

It is very typical for a lot of these dogs to also develop pancreatitis!! (again it's because of side effects of the meds -- not so much b/c of feeding)so then you really DO have to be uber careful about fat.

So honestly I'd just tell you to hedge your bets -- keep SOMETHING on the shelf all the time that you can reach for because there will likely come the day when peanut butter just doesn't cut it.

AND you really do NOT want the dog to suck on these pills at all - pred is majorly bitter, and usually azathiaprene is coated and you don't want a stricture to form (a burn in the throat that can occur if a pill gets STUCK and doesn't go down to the stomach). I used to always give pills just prior to meals to ensure nothing got 'stuck'.

Pred helps here because it does make them so hungry.

You wouldn't have to use "baby food" if you don't mind puree-ing your own veggies and meats. Baby food is just easy.

Sounds like you are doing great!!!

Re: AIHA or IMHA

calliecritturs — Tue, 14 May 2013 17:14:36 GMT

TracyM:
She doesn't believe that human grade sam-E is effective in dogs and keeps pushing the denamerin, I am using the human grade and we have had good results so far. I did find the cheapest sam-E on amazon for $30.00, if you are a prime member it is free shipping.

She's right that MOST human SAM-e doesn't work on dogs **because** it is formulated to be enteric. That means it's digested in the small intestine and dogs just don't DO that well. That's why I'm always talking about the CellFood SAM-e -- it's a liquid so it is readily absorbable for the dogs. If THAT is the one you are using it's great on dogs.

The problem with Denamarin is it's actually darned difficult for them to digest - I've seen lots of dogs throw it up hours later completely undigested. You'd think since it's formulated for dogs it would be more digestible but it's not.

If you're finding CellFood SAM-e for $30 on Amazon Prime you've found a good deal!!

You can pay all sorts of prices for other brands of SAM-e. You have to watch how it's packaged and how strong it is, as well as the shipping.

As far as the thyroid stuff -- it's generally VERY well known by vets that prednisone screws up any testing done on the thyroid. That's why they are so resistant to testing it -- they think there's no point.

BUT that also means that your vet hasn't kept up with the publications out of Michigan State -- they did published studies like 7 years ago on the effect of prednisone on thyroid testing. And you can also point to "The Canine Thyroid Epidemic" by W. Jean Dodds, DVM -- and that's available on Amazon.

Why not have the holistic vet draw the blood and send it to Hemopet? Dr. Dodds is very supportive of the Chinese herbs (she has a TCVM vet on staff at her practice at Hemopet). If you are just sending the Thyroid 5 profile, you can send it Priority Mail to her in California -- it wouldn't be a problem at all to send it from Alaska.

That said, tell your regular vet you want the test sent to Hemopet. You ARE the consumer. And if you provide the forms and pay the shipping -- it's a TEST -- not just prescribing the supplement.

But yeah -- sometimes you just have to be pushy -- learning to insist that a vet do a test, rather than just letting them say no. Or ... taking your business elsewhere -- and if all else fails do it yourself (and get another vet to draw the blood and YOU send it).

When it came to protecting Billy I learned to be pretty much an immovable object!! *smile*

I know, I know -- tough to imagine ME being pushy huh??? *ducking swiftly*