Nutrition

Re: Switching...

brookcove — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:07:00 GMT

I have difficulties with Zhi because she's an "easy keeper" as well as being eight pounds. There are some foods that she truly eats, I swear, no more than maybe twenty kibbles. That's where the high volume, low energy supplemental treats come in handy.

Zhi loves fruit and veggies, fortunately. But even if she didn't, she can get things like low cal bones (beef ribs with most of the meat gone), and bully sticks, that give her the satisfaction of "eating" without adding much in the way of calories.

I also put a dab of canned tripe in her food and fill the bowl with warm water. Little dogs can never get too much water (assuming they have easy or frequent access to potty areas).

If canned is expensive, you can steam veggies (apples, pears, peas, carrots, zucchini, squash) and then for dogs that don't like veggies, blend with sauteed beef liver (in a blender on high, or a food processor) or canned fish, freeze in ice cube trays, and offer one per meal.

Re: Switching...

Luvntzus — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:05:43 GMT

There are definitely different foods that can give the same results. Fromm Whitefish and Potato, Eagle Pack Holistic Anchovy, Sardine, & Salmon Meal and Orijen Senior are all good choices. I think anything under 400 calories per cup is good. Of the foods above, Fromm has the least amount of calories at 325 per cup. Gingerbread lost weight on that food, then I stupidly switched to another without checking the calories- Canine Caviar Venison & Split Pea (grain free food). It has 586 calories per cup! Gingerbread's weight went back up and Peanut gained weight too. From now on I'm keeping them on a food with under 400 calories.

Re: Switching...

tiffy — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:45:55 GMT

I did buy some canned peas today, no salt.

Re: Switching...

brookcove — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:26:44 GMT

I don't think so. I had my gang on Wellness Core Ocean, and switched to the Orijen Senior, and a couple of them actually gained weight! My 45 pound moderately active 8 year old BC eats only one cup a day. So you'll want to watch that. If you need to reduce, you can add canned veggies or fruit (packed in water with no salt).

Re: Switching...

tiffy — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:40:11 GMT

I bought a bag of the Orijen sr. and she gobbled it up! Next question, should I up the amount? Currently she receives 1/3 C. 2x a day, with Salmon Oil and Vit. E

Re: Switching...

stanton — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:29:05 GMT

tzu_mom:

Stanton---GA (Guaranteed Analysis).

Oh....sheesh....duh on my part.....definitely too early this morning when I read the post.....thanks!

Re: Switching...

tzu_mom — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:28:35 GMT

Stanton---GA (Guaranteed Analysis). By the way, if Rivers is, indeed, sensitive to chicken Orijen has a new "Regional Red" formula that would work, so that you have another option besides the Fish formula.

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/regionalRed.aspx

Tiffy---Another product that is great for weight loss is the Eagle Pack Holistic Senior formula---I think Brookcove alluded to it. It is a low fat formula, but with a nice protein level.

Re: Switching...

stanton — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:18:11 GMT

Brookcove...sorry, my early mindset isn't grasping the statement you made of the "GA profile is different" regarding the Orijen senior versus adult? What is GA?

I DO very highly like Orijen foods, have since I first heard of them. I've too wondered if there were any real differences from their food versus what I could do in a home-prepared, exception being I would buy my own food sources; however their foods/sources have some really legitament/detailed info as to where they come from.

Perhaps at some point I could slowly mix in the senior formula back into Cal Natural lamb/rice for Rivers and see what becomes of it....but I"m going to wait for him to go through at least 2 bags of the lamb/rice to see what becomes of that.

Re: Switching...

brookcove — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:37:23 GMT

I don't know about "that much easier" - it's just an easy to digest food as kibbles go. Lynn, my eighteen month old Golden/BC/Dutch Shepherd cross, tolerates it very nicely. She has had a very touchy tummy ever since she had a bout of severe gastroenteritis as a puppy. Whether or not a food sits well with Lynn is the "gold standard" around here for digestibility of a diet.

Since switching to the Orijen, I've dropped a couple of "tummy soothing" supplements from her diet, which saves me mucho bucks each month. She can also share in some of the raw meaty bones that she's had to miss out on previously - red meat in particular. It's tough for a dog living on a sheep farm, not able to share what's in the freezer at processing times.

If a food is a "FAIL" Lynn is a bile barfer and also treats us with poopsplosions. So it's pretty obvious when a diet isn't working for her. There is no difference between the Orijen and the professionally, custom designed home prepared diet she was on previously. I was stunned when I realized that.

Gus, one of the other dogs on the Orijen senior, also has a somewhat barfy tummy - but his problem is poopsplosions. Most kibbles make him have occaisional bouts of irritated gut. This one and Eagle Pack Senior do not, however. The old Canidae senior was great too, but when they changed it, it lost its superior digestibility in my opinion. I don't know what it was but it certainly isn't as good as before.

So, when I say it's easy to digest, I'm speaking from direct observation - not a huge sample size but reliable ones for my purposes.

ETA: by the way, the ingredients aren't identical in several key places. There are multiple prebiotic sources. The fat is a bit further down. The protein sources are slightly rearranged and there's a couple of differences. And the GA profile is significantly different.

Re: Switching...

jimtewv — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:34:17 GMT

Supposition I would suspect rather than fact. Champion makes no such claims for their Orijen Senior. Ingredients virtually identical? INGREDIENTS - Adult Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product. INGREDIENTS - Senior Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh deboned lake whitefish, salmon meal, fresh deboned walleye, chicken liver, fresh deboned turkey, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), Lactobacillus acidophilus and Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Re: Switching...

stanton — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:16:16 GMT

Brookcove - is the senior Orijen really that much easier for them to digest versus the regular adult Orijen??

Re: Switching...

jimtewv — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:42:08 GMT

The carb battle with dogs is not unlike the one with people---other than the fact that dogs really don't need any carbs and we do. We need them for energy---dogs get much of their energy from fats. Not unlike us there are empty (mostly refined sugar and/or wheat) "Twinkies" and "good" carbs, i.e., those with a high fiber content, e.g., veggies and whole grains. The advantage of adding veggies to a dog's diet is that they get virtually no nutrition (i.e., very little caloric impact) from them, but they do get fiber and properly mixed in it makes them "feel" as if they ate more than they did. If you don't have time to prepare the veggies, a number of companies pre-mix fresh, frozen veggies (A Place for Paws in Ohio, also they have Green Tripe). Again, while I avoid any food with corn and wheat for my canines, I'm not adverse to other whole grains---assuming the product is of a very high quality but that's not to say I go looking for them. It's anecdotal but I am absolutely convinced that feeding a very high quality, "super-premium" diet consisting of a mix of kibble, canned, raw and frozen raw over the last three years has dramatically reduced ear and skin infections. Actually, none of my three have been to the vet for anything other than checkups and shots in the last two and a half years.

Re: Switching...

stanton — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:15:16 GMT

So strange, I actually found when I switched to grain free foods such as Orijen and Evo my dogs's weight actually turned towards the better; they slimmed up real good and actually developed more muscle. I found it so much easier to maintain their weight on a grain-free food then one with grains. If you get too many grains in their diet, the same will occur.

Re: Switching...

brookcove — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:12:23 GMT

That's why I like the senior. Orijen's version is really awesome - you should try it just to see. You can add a teaspoon or so of canned salmon, or a canned fish flavored pet food to "fish flavor" it.

I've got a five year old (Zhi the Chinese Crested) and an eight year old on it, as well as Maggie who really is a senior. Another nice thing about the senior, is that it's easy to digest, so Lynn eats it too for that. Lynn's only a year and a half old.

The only dog I wouldn't put on it is a puppy since the minerals would be way off for rapid growth.

Re: Switching...

jimtewv — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:08:18 GMT

The Orijen fish is 460 kcal per cup, the Senior 395 and the Fromm you mentioned 325. The Fromm does include several grains although no corn or wheat, but Oat, Barley, Millet, etc. so it is not "grain free". Grain is okay in its place. There has been a bit of over reaction to grains in dog foods (having said that, I feed no-grain dry foods). If not grains then most dog foods include some other form of carb---potatoes commonly. The only truly no-carb dog food (freeze dried) I know of is Ziwipeak and it is 1,000 calories per cup and very expensive---over 20 bucks for a couple of pounds. Some folks add veggies to the kibble so that the pup gets more of a sense of fullness without a lot of usable calories. Fresh is nice but canned or frozen green beans or carrots, ground up fine and mixed with the kibble (and perhaps a little flavoring, if no more than a dash of garlic powder). My vet also recommends a supplement, more for the micro-nutrients than anything else, since at some point they may be lacking in a reduced diet. Keep in mind that if I fed just the dry, Orijen fish to my 105 to 109 pound Weimaraner----no treats, no raw, no canned, just the kibble---he would only be getting approx. a cup and a half a day of food---which is exactly what he gets when he is (infrequently) boarded. When I run into someone at the dog park who is feeding their obese Chocolat Lab (both knees have been repaired) six cups of Science Diet a day---because that's what it says on the bag... Or the chubby 13 inch Beagle who gets three cups a day of whatever----the same amount of food that two of my dogs combined get (combined weight of roughly 170 pounds)...