Nutrition

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:50:36 GMT

Ok....picked up some of the "no salt" white bottle, started him on it tonight.

I'd have to venture that Rivers is getting around 1600-1700 calories depending on the day.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

Chuffy — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:42:43 GMT

Aren't bananas a good source of potassium? Didn't I read that somewhere? OK, carry on.....

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

brookcove — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:58:49 GMT

if I calculate the calories from the tid-bit treats, his food intake, etc. he's definitely in the 80-100# dog calorie intake level easy.

LOL. You must mean 800 to 1000. And even so - check out this site for estimating the energy requirements of your dog (figuring out whether you are on the right track in terms of kcals).

http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm

It's pretty accurate. Ted, as a light to moderate duty working dog, actually gets consumes around 1850 kcals but he runs on the light side as eaters go. It's certainly not Bible true. Maggie, also about 35 pounds, and 15 1/2 years old, stays just a bit on the chubby side eating only 475 kcals a day. I do need to have her thyroid levels checked sometime soon, again but she's always been an extremely easy keeper.

Remember that just because River still wants to eat doesn't mean he should. Stooll quality is one guide. Overfeeding can be indicated by on and off soft serve stools, including movements that start formed and normal and end up soft serve - sometimes even showing signs of irritated gut - mucous, even bloody signs which is actually sloughed-off lining tissue.

So check that but definitely also try the potassium supplement. It's a common supplement of body builders - one of the basics.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 04:54:11 GMT

brookcove:
It sounds like he's not necessarily underfed, but rather not building muscle like he should. BCs do this - you get to a point of diminishing returns as far as how much food you can put in them, and still have the Oliver Twist look.

You nailed it. He, in my mind, is not underfed, but you said it right, you get to a point of diminishing returns. I don't see how, honestly I can put more food in that boy. He WILL eat, however, anything you give him with gusto, but if I calculate the calories from the tid-bit treats, his food intake, etc. he's definitely in the 80-100# dog calorie intake level easy.

Never thought of potassium. I will definitely give it a shot and see what becomes. Thanks a bunch!

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

brookcove — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:19:50 GMT

Try adding potassium. Pick up "No Salt" from the grocery (seasoning section) and start with 1/8 tsp per day (you can put it all in one meal). It sounds like he's not necessarily underfed, but rather not building muscle like he should. BCs do this - you get to a point of diminishing returns as far as how much food you can put in them, and still have the Oliver Twist look. Males especially from one to three years old. Potassium helps build muscle. Don't go crazy though - watch to make sure his water consumption is unchanged. It should be fine as potassium is simply an electrolyte - hard to overdose - but it's good to be cautious nonetheless.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:56:31 GMT

UPDATE :

Ok...Rivers's anal glands were definitely full; that seemed to really help with the smell for sure. In fact, he doesn't smell funny anymore...don't know why I didn't think to do that sooner.

He's been on Cal Natural lamb/rice puppy version for 8 days now, his stools have improved ten-fold, and he's only pooping once a day from what I can tell; he does get fed 3 times a day though, 2 bigger meals, and a mid-day snack (it's the only way I can keep weight on him). He's currently getting roughly 3+cups a day; but I actually think he's lost some weight again. I might have to resort to mixing this food with something other then anything with chicken/beef/poultry in general to help keep his weight on.

I'd love to try Orijen fish if I could order a small bag to start with; I'd hate to buy the big bag and find that it doesn't agree with him. But then again, I'm wondering if his system too does better with less complicated formulas.

Can anyone think of ideas I can mix with this guys food to assist with weight stabilization; he's pretty active running our back yard, that's where he's burning the calories for sure.

I found some canned venison/millet from Nature's Variety; thought about also using Cal Natural's canned lamb, along with Canidae has a canned lamb version as well....

Affording lamb and pork from the store is out of the question. In another two weeks or so, I will try adding chicken back in and see if his stools remain normal, but I have the feeling chicken's been the loose stool culprit....unfortunately.

He's currently 53# and I can feel EVERY rib on his body; I like my dogs on the thin side, but he can very easily fall on the too thin side on any given week. If I had to calculate how many miles he runs across our back yard throughout the day; I'd probably say upwards of 3-5 or so; on a busy day when he hasn't cut his foot open, I'd say more. We live on an acre, but our backyard is 75% of that and he runs laps if you will around the entire yard when he can smell or see wildlife around, horses, etc. or his pretty girlfriend the fox that loves to play with him through the fence.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:46:14 GMT

Yeap, we have him on the puppy version. The adult version is way too high in carb's for my taste, you're basically paying for rice.

When my older little guy was on dry dog food, we fed him this same food for years; he did great, so hopefully Rivers will too.

I'll keep you posted. Today's his 2nd day on it.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

tzu_mom — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:51:27 GMT

Do you have him on the adult formula CN? Be aware that the protein/fat levels are a bit on the low side (21%/11%). You may need to feed the puppy version with a bit more protein/fat (26%/16%) to keep his energy level up. I know quite a few people who feed the puppy version to their adult dogs for this reason.

For what it's worth, my dogs do horribly on a chicken and/or fish based diet-----they really thrive on a combination of lamb, beef, and venison. They do get chicken and fish on occasion, but only as an accent, never as a base meal. Maybe Rivers is one of those dogs that will do better on a red meat (hopefully, the lamb) based diet. The key is to find what works best for your dog---different dogs, different dietary needs.

Good luck with the CN trial.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:54:07 GMT

It is funny to know that some dogs DO end up doing better on actual dog foods rather then homemade diets, even when you DO have everything balanced.

Started Rivers on Cal Natural last night; main reason, he hasn't had lamb in his diet since he was 5mnths old. This way I can eliminate *everything* he's had in the last year and start over, basically.

I'll feed him nothing but that for at least a week or two and see how his stools turn out; his coat, eyes, etc are all great, it's only his stools that are strange. And he does seem to lose energy mid-day, almost like a child who's sugar level drops....hopefully this'll change that too.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

jennie_c_d — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:09:58 GMT

I had an issue, a little while back, after feeding a raw diet for several years. My (then) 4 year old dog (who, admittedly, has issues) started to fall apart. I was feeding beef, pork, turkey, venison, and rabbit on a regular basis, with canned fish snacks and the occasional odd meat. She started to look like.... well, poo. Her skin looked terrible, she started losing weight, she was itching constantly, and unable to think.

I paid for a consult with a nutritionist. I was extremely happy with the feedback I got, and the results, but Emma started to react to something in her diet. I gave up and went to the Hills Z/D, and now? She can think, her skin looks good (for her), her inflammation is incredibly low (almost NO arthritis symptoms), and she feels lots better in general. She looks like a house dog, but I can deal with that. When we figure out what's going on, I'll probably do another consult, with the same nutritionist, to find a commercial food and supplement it with extra proteins and good stuff that Emma can have, without getting things out of whack. Now that I know I have a dog sensitive to dietary deficiencies (actually, two, the Crested is the one who told me my diet was off, with Becca's help), I'm much more careful about what I put in their mouths.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:33:55 GMT

jessies_mom:
If you're going to add supplements, you need to know your dog's requirements and be careful. For example, too much zinc interferes with calcium absorption.

My fears exactly...I *don't* want to be messing around with having to add supplements individually. And I'm really surprised others haven't had too, if by feeding plenty of a variety of meats along with organ meats, fish, eggs, etc still leaves their bodies short of minerals, others are having to add it somehow. You'd think....but you never hear about it; Brookcove was the first to really point it out.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

jessies_mom — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:49:09 GMT

aerial1313:
stanton:
My fear with Pro plan and Canidae is they have yet to ever prove that their fish does not contain Ethoxiquin. The only company I know 100% that does not contain ethoxiquin is Orijen/Champion products.

Eagle Pack has a nice holistic fish formula and it's ethoxyquin free. If the source the company bought the fish meal from added the ethoxyquin, it doesn't have to be listed in the ingredients. I don't know about Pro Plan or Canidae, but Hill's doesn't use ethoxyquin anymore, and the Rx food by Royal Canin that I feed Jessie, which is fish and rice, doesn't have ethoxyquin. It's becoming less common, thank goodness!!

stanton:
By the time I add up the cost of all the supplements individually along with assorted veggies, I'm back to the basic cost amount of what the Honest Kitchen cost to begin with.

If you're going to add supplements, you need to know your dog's requirements and be careful. For example, too much zinc interferes with calcium absorption.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

aerial1313 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:23:53 GMT

stanton:
My fear with Pro plan and Canidae is they have yet to ever prove that their fish does not contain Ethoxiquin. The only company I know 100% that does not contain ethoxiquin is Orijen/Champion products.

So you might consider giving the Orijen 6 Fresh Fish a shot. Order it from k9cuisine and you'll get free shipping if your order's over $50, which is the 15-lb bag of this variety plus a toy or something (the 15lb bag is $49, the 29.7 lb bag is $86). See my post above where I listed out all the fish ingredients...no mackerel. I love this food, my dogs love this food, I have no complaints. Well, if it was a little cheaper, that'd be great, but I'll sacrifice dinner out at a restaurant a couple times a month to be able to afford to feed this to my guys.

Good luck!!!

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

stanton — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:09:04 GMT

My fear with Pro plan and Canidae is they have yet to ever prove that their fish does not contain Ethoxiquin. The only company I know 100% that does not contain ethoxiquin is Orijen/Champion products.

Re: Ok...I've had it...why do my dogs stink???

aerial1313 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:53:37 GMT

brookcove:
I feed Orijen which I get at K9 Cuisine - free shipping if you spend more than $50 (which is like, one bag of Orijen).

Me too. The free shipping on orders over $50 is not a special, either...they've always had that offer since I've been buying it from them. I feed the 6 Fresh Fish variety, and I double-checked, it does not contain any mackerel.

Here's a list of the fish elements in the food: Fresh salmon (includes chinook. coho and sockeye species), salmon meal, herring meal, fresh lake whitefish, fresh lake trout, fresh Northern walleye, freshwater cod, fresh herring, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherals, a natural source of vitamin E), crab shell

I just placed an order with them on Saturday. Since it was a weekend, they're shipping it today. If you order on a weekday, they almost always ship the same day. It usually only takes 2-3 days for me to get my orders.

As far as anal glands...Harry sometimes get that stink on his butt, too. I talked to my vet about it, and he said it was probably due to the way he may have laid down that put a bit of pressure on the glands, causing them to express slightly. He said as long as they are expressing, not to worry. It's when they don't express that you have a problem. But the smell is gagging, for sure. Of course, his stink butt is only every once in a while, so I'm not going to worry about it unless he shows signs of discomfort back there. I can usually make it a little better by washing just his butt area, or scrubbing a little with a Nature's Miracle pet wipe.