How About Dog IQ?

• 09-25-2009 5:54 PM

  In reply to miranadobe

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,729 Points 1,020

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact miranadobe: I tend to question studies like these, because behavior input (external influences like socio-economic status, etc) is so different for each human, and comparing humans to dogs still doesn't quite fit for me, esp in this context. My sisters and I were all spanked, and even physically abused by our alcoholic father - meanwhile, we all have genius IQs.  Oh, and we all have been productive people who have "stayed out of trouble", ie, offered positive behavior - no arrests, no drug problems, etc, etc.  Our step-sisters, who were not hit, have average IQs, and have had arrests, drug problems, etc.  Clearly, we're not in any study, but here's where I have to believe that genetics plays a bigger role in IQ than anything, enhanced by environment, of course, but your base level stems from your genetics, IMO. Likewise, I think human (and dog) IQ is not the same as behavior.  Measuring if a dog will offer extraneous/novel behaviors may seem like some to be a measure of IQ, but I don't.   Good points.  I caught an interesting TV show about genetics (might have been Nova, not sure) and the fact that it isn't just genes that make us who we are, it's the triggers that turn those genes on and off - and those are much more variable.  I also think the point isn't whether you still have a genius IQ after such treatment as you got, but whether those genius IQ's would have been even higher had you not.  I agree that your base level is related to genetics.  But, since your half sisters haven't the same genetic makeup as you and your sibs, the argument that they didn't get spanked doesn't really relate to their relative intelligence compared to yours - I think, again, it's about whether their intelligence would have been any different based on the correction factor.  When you think of it in those terms, the sample would have to be larger than one family to show a correlation between punishment and IQ in humans.  I assume that it was in the study, and would be very interested to see how a random study in dogs would work out. I can also identify with Liesje's point about just somehow knowing that my parents were in charge.  I think that's what my dogs must feel - I don't spank them, or even use collar corrections, but they "get it."  Think about the privileges as resources and it fits.  So, Liesje got a later curfew, and Sequoyah gets to play tug if she lies quietly at my feet in a down for a few minutes.  The control of resources, and the expectation of respect are important, I think.  Also, confusion leads to anxiety, and I think that anxiety is counterproductive to learning.  Therefore, I would expect dogs that are anxious to learn less well than if they were not.  So, if we assume that a stable dog with a good reinforcement history can handle a bit of punishment without much anxiety, what about the nervous or anxious dog?  And, what about the untrained dog with the owner who punishes without first installing that history?  I don't know if this study has any implications for dogs, but I think that the discussion is worthwhile in making for more thinking trainers;-) Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 09-25-2009 6:37 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,693 Points 80

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact It's certainly tempting to want to draw parallels. However I think it's a stretch, simply because measuring IQ is so notoriously difficult in the first place, and I think meaningless to a degree. I think it would be more meaningful to compare how quickly a child (or dog) would pick up new skills depending on how they have been taught in the past. And then if you wanted to try to control for natural ability I guess you'd do an IQ test as well... This is far too complicated for Saturday morning musings. I will say that personality comes into it probably quite a lot. Kivi Tarro often gives the impression that he is not the brightest crayon in the box. I have come to realise, though, that a lot of this is just because he's so laid back and mellow that he just doesn't care enough to make connections. Things in his world just happen to him, and it takes a bit of effort to actually teach him that he can affect what happens to him and what doesn't. In contrast, Erik had figured out we were calling him Erik within 2 hours of coming home with us, had figured out the sound our car makes by 3 days later, knew what "breakfast" meant 2 days after we got him, and learnt "sit" pretty much instantly. Erik is alert and sees the world as a place full of opportunities. He notices things Kivi doesn't notice, and that makes him a good deal easier to teach. But does it make him smarter? I don't feel I could say. Mourning Penny. We were going to be young together forever, but I'm glad we grew up together instead.

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• 09-26-2009 6:30 AM

  In reply to miranadobe

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Posts 112 Points 5

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact miranadobe: Clearly, we're not in any study, but here's where I have to believe that genetics plays a bigger role in IQ than anything, enhanced by environment, of course, but your base level stems from your genetics, IMO.   This one has been a round a while. Nature or Nuture? Ian Dunbar believes that the mix for dogs is 10 Nuture 1 nature and that early work with a dog can counter Nature either way. Myself i just don't know. My older poodle Luci is would be regarded as quite precosious , being 3 and a bit and trialling at UD. I had her retrieving really young , and tracked her very early. But i selected for personality type. Like humans after a while an extra drop of IQ doesn't do a whole lot. I wanted a highly curious bratty dog that was pushy, confident and pulled my heart strings. I loved her a whole lot when i bought her home and my old dog looked at her, barked, and she barked stright back. She is able to solve very very tricky tracking problems, is a breeze to handle on Agility, and is way better than me at Obedience. Sam i got as an Adult dog. He was total brat, very bright , not scared of anything i could find and could stand up to Luci.Luci uses most dogs her size as toilet tissue. He missed a lot of early work  but has learnt the basics quite quickly. He is slower to teach than Luci was as a Puppy, but it sticks easier and doesn't seem to need as much proofing. He has taken to tracking very quickly. I think that he wil land up being multi titled . Both Sam and Luci are 1/2 brother, sister. I think though anecdoctal evidence such as yours and mine is flawed. I can tell you a story about my family just switch the sex of the protaginist a little similar to yours. If we look beneath the surface of criminality and drug problems, we could look at high levels of obsessive and anxious behaviour and find a gold mine. The problem is how do we find what happens when we put stresses on animals of any kind ?  How are they expressed? I think it is unwise to re-try trials that have already being done and we know without doubt that  a diet of non contingent punishment often results in learned helplessness in humans and animals. Why repeat the mistakes? Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera CDX Ch Jenuin Constanine

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• 09-26-2009 11:11 AM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,729 Points 1,020

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact I think it is unwise to re-try trials that have already being done and we know without doubt that  a diet of non contingent punishment often results in learned helplessness in humans and animals. Why repeat the mistakes? This is often what we mean when we say "shut down" and yet it has little to do with whether the dog seems happy or not.  Many people want to assign unhappiness to that, and then refuse to believe that their dog is shut down because he seems like a generally happy dog.  But, humans and dogs alike can be generally happy, but still exhibit the "learned helplessness" that you refer to.  Oftentimes, it is simply, for some, behavioral inhibition, or perhaps a desire to be told what to do, rather than make the decision oneself.  But, the fact that someone has coped in this way does not, in my opinion, mean that they have significant drop in IQ, although that is probably the case with some.  I think, as with other behavioral issues, it may also be a question of degree, both in the causative factors and any resultant change in IQ.  Fascinating to think about the complexities of the brain, whether human or canine... Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 09-28-2009 12:29 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  miranadobe Joined on 04-06-2006 Purgatory Posts 5,447 Points 315

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact spiritdogs: But, humans and dogs alike can be generally happy, but still exhibit the "learned helplessness" that you refer to.  Oftentimes, it is simply, for some, behavioral inhibition, or perhaps a desire to be told what to do, rather than make the decision oneself.  But, the fact that someone has coped in this way does not, in my opinion, mean that they have significant drop in IQ, although that is probably the case with some.  I think, as with other behavioral issues, it may also be a question of degree, both in the causative factors and any resultant change in IQ.  Here's where I think the discussion is quite interesting.  What's great for me, is to have seen Logan working for pure enjoyment and knowing that his corrections have been limited, and usually exclusive to an actual problem, as opposed to stopping him from performing a behavior incorrectly.  I love to watch the behavior he exhibits as he works.  Does he have a higher IQ than Gracie because of that?  I don't know.  Perhaps behavior is easier to measure/quantify in dogs versus humans?  Although humans can be questioned about their reasoning for their actions, whereas dogs cannot.  I just keep circling back to thinking that "behavior" is not the same as "intelligence".  I'm currently smarter than my boss, as is my coworker, but we defer to the boss' authority because it behooves us to keep accepting a paycheck while offering suggestions, but not directly defying instructions to complete our jobs.  It works for us on a plethora of levels.  Maybe since dogs can't often choose their bosses or work environements, they make the best out of their situations, too... or, they directly defy the authority in place... and sometimes die because of that choice of behavior. Paige - dog.community moderator & Gracie - 6yr old Doberman www.fortunatek9.com Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth. ~W. Hamilton "So you've 'had dogs all your life'? I've had teeth all my life. Doesn't make me a dentist." - JV McDonough, Certified Dog Trainer

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• 09-28-2009 9:26 AM

  In reply to miranadobe

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,729 Points 1,020

  Re: How About Dog IQ? Reply Contact I'm currently smarter than my boss, as is my coworker, but we defer to the boss' authority because it behooves us to keep accepting a paycheck while offering suggestions, but not directly defying instructions to complete our jobs.  It works for us on a plethora of levels.  Maybe since dogs can't often choose their bosses or work environements, they make the best out of their situations, too... or, they directly defy the authority in place... and sometimes die because of that choice of behavior. That last statement is the sad truth.  Dogs are PTS every day because they choose to act more like dogs than humans want them to.  Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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