Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

• 02-22-2008 1:20 AM

  In reply to Dog_ma

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,102 Points 80

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact My boyfriend thinks it a funny idiosyncracy of mine that nothing gets me riled quite like other people getting riled. I get surly about people getting surly. This kind of thread makes me surly. I've had some people tell me all sorts of insane things about my methods and my dogs on this board, and some of it really has been quite offensive to me. Even so, only once has it ever been something I couldn't take in the spirit of forums and that was because it was a non-dog related thing. As a consequence, I took a break and stay away from NDR things that I suspect are going to clash with my sensibilities. Hmm. If only I'd thought of that earlier. From that experience I've also learnt to stay clear of threads I suspect are just going to be a whole lot of bickering and people trying to tell everyone else stuff that we all already know. I feel like this thread, even, is an example of that, although there has been no bickering yet. Just a month or so ago we had a similar thread where people vented their angst about positive and whatnot. I'm yet to see anything new. And again, I feel a little peeved that we're even having this dicussion. Most of us on this board try not to call people names, make accusations about their methods and how they treat their dogs, and force things down people's throats. Not everyone is like this, but not all of them are clicker people, or positive trainers. No amount of "you know, most people don't like that kind of behaviour" is going to change the behaviour of the folks in question (and I have to be honest, I'm not really sure who we're talking about, but it doesn't matter). We all have to deal with it. Those who like clickers and those who like corrections and those who like both or neither. Quit ya whinin' and deal with the fact that not everyone is nice, and there are a lot of people who don't see what they're doing as rude when it is. That's life. I think Sally said it best: your dog is the only one that matters, so listen to them. Either you'll let your emotions dictate what you try or you won't. As long as it feels right it doesn't actually matter. No one is perfect. Except perhaps me. To be slightly more on topic, I originally got surly about clickers because I felt like I was doing fine communicating with my animals without a bridge. I didn't need one. I still don't really need one. But I'm going to try it anyway because otherwise how will I know its potential, either good or bad? More recently I get surly about it because I'm trying to learn and then people come blowing in touting things about punishments in positive and such like. Yeah, I know. I don't care. I just want to learn what I can do and I'll decide from all my information gathering what I will do. And then the discussion gets hijacked by one big furor of defensiveness. That gets me surly. I'm that poindexter in the corner of the classroom that whines "Some people here are trying to learn!" and then gets wedgied or has a spit ball head their way if anyone bothers to pay attention to them at all. Long story short, I acknowledge and understand the surliness, once again, offer a blanket apology for any time I might have let my passion carry me away or accidentally come off preachy, and please can everyone just ignore the things they don't like, even the really personal things? I know it's hard, but I doubt anything else will help.   Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

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• 02-22-2008 1:37 AM

  In reply to corvus

  Dog_ma Joined on 06-25-2007 San Diego County, California Posts 1,333 Points 795	Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Corvus, you are so darn cute.   "Are you a dog trainer?" "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."
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• 02-22-2008 6:40 AM

  In reply to Dog_ma

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,517 Points 500

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact And I live in a world of harsh realities. Your feelings can get hurt and keep on getting hurt until those feelings get burned out. I've worked with several different people with different styles of delivery, different core concerns, different levels of arrogance. Once I learn someone's style, it's easier for me to hear what they are saying without an emotional reaction of my own. So, what I am understanding so far is that some have, in the past, been surly about positive method training and clicker training because of the perceived attitude of a few, possibly even me. I know I'm a PITA. I've been called any number of things. Just the other day, someone thought I was a plumber. I am apolitical. I will agree with a person regardless of who doesn't like them. I also have a bad habit about saying what I think or know, even if it points out that I was wrong previously. That's because I don't have the particular vanity that says I have to be seen as right, all the time. Which is a point that Benedict has tried to make twice. We're all a product of our upbringing, me included. My mom did the majority of our ubringing and it shows, at least to me. There are certain facts of life, the search for truth, the quest to be the best at whatever you do, the fact that you don't know it all, that you can be wrong, and if it hurts your feelings, fine, have some hurt feelings, if it suits you. I know I can make my mother sound rather surly and many times, she was. She was full of compassion and love, too, and sacrificed many things to ensure that we had what we needed growing up. She was raising a couple of headstrong boys on her own without a high school diploma or child support in a time and place that was hard for a woman to do so and did a halfway decent job, if I might brag. But, you got to admit, this is a mighty fine forum, where you can air your grievances. The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 02-22-2008 7:42 AM

  In reply to Benedict

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,735 Points 1,135

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Benedict: What I am saying isn't referring to attacks of others, but to vehement defense of oneself and one's training methods...or advocation of those training methods....that perhaps....just maybe....strongly held beliefs come across as arrogant when really the poster simply is trying to eliminate holes being picked in what they say.   Ah... yes. And that's my "thing" and the crux of this thread, from my perspective. Defense of the way I treat my dogs. That's my own personal source of surliness. I don't feel I should need to defend myself when the proof of my methods is out there for everyone to see. I've been really open with pictures and videos, but still, people think my dogs are suffering... Without the attacks, there would be no need for defense and without the defense, the "power" of the attacks would die of neglect. Chicken and the egg... I admit, it's very difficult for me to hear and take some of the attacks, but my challenge is to stop defending my own beliefs and actions. I think I've actually come a long way in that but when someone attacks, it's hard for me not to defend myself. Taking a break from the board when I feel defensive also helps a LOT! And Kim, thank you so much. You have never attacked me and have always helped when I asked. You are a great example (IMO) of how to teach by being a good leader and setting an example instead of by force and ridicule. I think we all agree that someone trying to lead by force and ridicule makes for the weakest and most ineffective "leader". LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 02-22-2008 8:46 AM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Cita Joined on 12-13-2006 CT Posts 4,406 Points 735

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact I just wish that people would attempt to train people to use a clicker the same way they train their dogs with the clicker. As in, fewer corrections, more positive reinforcement, stepping away when things get too tense (and learning is therefore shut down), not focusing on what is "wrong" but rather on what the preferred behavior is... etc. I see a lot of psychological "leash popping" in a lot of the training/behavior threads, and I think pointed jabs like that are no more appropriate to use on people than they are to use on dogs. That is what makes me surly, and it's unfortunate it so often has to be associated with clicker threads.

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• 02-22-2008 2:49 PM

  In reply to Cita

  Pwca Joined on 09-09-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,312 Points 305	Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact  This comic perfectly sums up why I think we all get so het up about the clicker/prong/CM debates:   "What do you want me to do, LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
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• 02-22-2008 3:07 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  Truley Joined on 08-27-2006 Louisville, Ky Posts 1,519 Points 110	Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact OMG! That made me laugh!  Thank you!
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• 02-22-2008 3:24 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  denise m Joined on 12-06-2006 Toronto Canada Posts 1,134 Points 70	Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Pwca:     Yep. that just about says it all! LOL
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• 02-22-2008 4:07 PM

  In reply to denise m

  Pit_Pointer_Aussie Joined on 04-13-2007 Upstate New York Posts 1,071 Points 125

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact That is awesome! LOL. I also have been thinking about this a lot lately, because I clicker train a lot of behaviors (meaning shape, no correction, etc.) and I also use my clicker in a class that is not shaping based, so I spend a lot of time with people who train using other methods. I find it to be a great learning experience. You can learn something from everyone. So anywho, back to what I was thinking. Using a clicker is not inherently rewarding when you are first learning to use it, which I think is interesting and really important! The timing thing is hard, getting the reward there is hard, noticing every movement that counts is hard, and in general it can lead to a lot of frustration. In the end, I think it drives people to quite clicking, and to be surly about it. Couple that with the amount of "everything else is inhumane" stuff that comes from some die-hard trainers, clicking becomes unpleasant. People don't want to talk about it, listen to it, etc. Clicking, or anything about clicking becomes P+! (This is partly in jest.) I don't think there is anyone on this forum who beats their dog into submission, or is inhumane. Those kinds of people don't spend 7 hours a week online talking about dog food, stool consistency, or how to fix a sit so it is perfectly straight. For those of us who love to click and want to spread our clicker love (not doctrine!), the best thing to do is apply our training principles to discussion -- Reward the positive, ignore what's wrong (or, more honestly, what isn't inline with what we think), and use your successes to gain attention and a captive audience who wants to learn. That's my PSA for today. Happy Friday.   It's just a better life with dogs.

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• 02-22-2008 7:18 PM

  In reply to Pit_Pointer_Aussie

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,517 Points 500

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Pit_Pointer_Aussie: For those of us who love to click and want to spread our clicker love (not doctrine!), the best thing to do is apply our training principles to discussion -- Reward the positive, ignore what's wrong (or, more honestly, what isn't inline with what we think), and use your successes to gain attention and a captive audience who wants to learn. I do that at work. See, if ya'll were just electricians and could see it my way ... And I am accepted by others on the crew. One of the gringos wrote a mexican curse on my paycheck envelope. That means "I'm in." And of course, I return the favor in kind. Can you feel the love in this room? I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post, which was actually the third one I had created, as I was intent on not ticking any one off, is that I have received criticism before, or judgement of something I did or didn't do. And I looked past their style of writing, looked past my own response to that, to get at a better understanding. Not everyone has a sugar and spice style of writing, least of all me. I used to be worse, as it were. I tended to write as I speak. In person, you might entertained or giggle. In words, it comes across totally different. And I was a natural smart-aleck, too. So, I learned, like a good dog, to fit in. At least, here and there.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 02-22-2008 8:34 PM

  In reply to Pit_Pointer_Aussie

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,985 Points 715

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Using a clicker is not inherently rewarding when you are first learning to use it, which I think is interesting and really important! The timing thing is hard, getting the reward there is hard, noticing every movement that counts is hard, and in general it can lead to a lot of frustration. Aside from your other points, this one is quite salient.  When people do quit at this point, they think the method is unpleasant, doesn't work, or is less effective than whatever method they were using before.  We all tend to fall back into easy patterns of behavior, whether it's how we train dogs or how we deal with the opposite sex LOL.  But, I notice that when people approach this with an open mind and a sense of humor, and not in such a "twist", threads like this arise, which actually do make people less surly, and more apt to feel like they have more in common with us than they first thought. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 02-23-2008 8:08 AM

  In reply to espencer

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,208 Points 10

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact espencer: Im really surely about my techniques, they have never failed but they are not "dumb-proof" so they are not for everybody, are they less good? heck no, they have saving me time, money, fights, bites, lawsuits, sleep hours and headaches   Good grief!  You have me wondering what kind of MONSTER you are living with!  OK, back to topic!  "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 02-23-2008 9:53 AM

  In reply to Pit_Pointer_Aussie

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,296 Points 335

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact Pit_Pointer_Aussie: So anywho, back to what I was thinking. Using a clicker is not inherently rewarding when you are first learning to use it, which I think is interesting and really important! The timing thing is hard, getting the reward there is hard, noticing every movement that counts is hard, and in general it can lead to a lot of frustration. In the end, I think it drives people to quite clicking, and to be surly about it. Couple that with the amount of "everything else is inhumane" stuff that comes from some die-hard trainers, clicking becomes unpleasant. People don't want to talk about it, listen to it, etc. Clicking, or anything about clicking becomes P+! (This is partly in jest.) I don't think the timing thing is hard at all.  I believe it is stressed just to keep the interest thing up and keep the owner practicing and try to perfect the technique.  But the secret is even though the owner gets better in time, the dog has already learned the game way beforehand.  I did clicker training on my fosters and I think it is effective for certain basic obedience and some very complex behavior problems.  I have limited expectations of what I want my residence dogs and foster dogs to respond to....and once that is accomplished I let the dogs experience and learn through living their lives.  I have had my fosters for a while now so I have not had to do obedience training.  My newest one has HD and since I don't have experience with that, I am proceeding with caution and I put off obedience training.  I look forward to my next foster and teaching that dog a modified technique using solely affection as a reward. Thats what makes training interesting to me and the surly part just makes me want to improve on the prevailing wisdom of training methods.

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• 02-23-2008 10:38 AM

  In reply to DPU

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,735 Points 1,135

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact DPU: I don't think the timing thing is hard at all.   I don't either. I think it might be hard for some and not-so-hard for others. Maybe because I'm a musician, the timing and everything about the movement of behavior marking is absolutely natural to me. I haven't come up against anything that I find "hard" about clicker training (except for the fact that I find it "easier" to show and tell the dog what I want and praise him for doing it, than to figure out how to get him to do something without any guidance). That's the only "hard" thing about clicker training to me. And that makes me a little but not much. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 02-23-2008 10:43 AM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,110 Points 770

  Re: Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: I don't either. I think it might be hard for some and not-so-hard for others. Maybe because I'm a musician, the timing and everything about the movement of behavior marking is absolutely natural to me. I haven't come up against anything that I find "hard" about clicker training (except for the fact that I find it "easier" to show and tell the dog what I want and praise him for doing it, than to figure out how to get him to do something without any guidance). That's the only "hard" thing about clicker training to me. And that makes me a little but not much.   The "101 things to do with a box" game is a really good exercise for that.  Even if your goal for clicker training doesn't as a whole include a lot of free-shaping, it's a good way of helping the dog to understand that what you want is for him/her to offer behaviours without being asked.  Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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